it is illegal for Merchants to charge credit card processing fees by law, they have to absorb these fees and cannot display them to the customer.
This naturally protects the artificial oligopoly of visa/mc/discover systems.
The moment you allow Merchants to charge cc fees (even 2-3%) and allow customer to choose low processing option (ACH/debit card/cash), the whole scheme falls apart and Visa/MC will slowly go bankrupt
the typical Merchant<->bank agreements all have clauses forcing them to absorb these fees and explicitly barring them from separately charging customer CC fee.
and most small/med businesses dont have clout to protest that, so they have to accept these terms in order to earn money
This hasn't been the case for a wide variety of payment processors for quite a while now. Many of the new startup-based ones have features to help you pass through the fees even. Small business can use Stripe, Square, Clover, or one of many other payment processors that don't ban them from passing credit card fees forward to consumers.
> the typical Merchant<->bank agreements all have clauses forcing them to absorb these fees and explicitly barring them from separately charging customer CC fee.
These clauses would be illegal in many states and countries these days, so they don’t.
perhaps they are capped only for EU merchants, because EU government works to protect their own companies and citizens from foreign artificial unregulated monopolies.
in US, the government is more protective of private monopolies due to lobbying
How are you defining monopolies? Companies that are successful? Because you seem to be defining most US companies that do business in Europe as monopolies. It seems that this is the kind of mindset that has kept Europe behind. Too bad. Regulation that keeps out competition or needlessly puts obstacles in place is bad for the consumer, bad for employment, and bad for the general standard of living. And If you think US companies are unregulated then you haven't seen the 20 ft of federal CFR regulations together with the regulations of 50 different states that US companies have to deal with everyday.
It matters. Do you want digital bits? You can have all the bits you want, and so can the entire population of the city.
Do you want physical cash? Well, of the bank is printing its own, they can hand out whatever they can print.
If you expect fiat currency (e.g. USD) or precious metals, then withdrawals are all limited by what the bank has on-hand, or can get quickly. Assuming this is what you’re asking about, it would be a “run” on the bank, they’d close up shop for the day, and it would affect the faith the population has in the monetary supply.
Still to this day, fake money continues to build America and afford the American lifestyle.
USD is backed by petrodollar, which is backed by US Navy and depends on US Armed Forces bombing anyone who refuses to use USD as a reserve and trade ccy.
USA is $39,000,000,000,000+ in debt as-is, if you add SS and Medicare shortfall, federal pensions and guarantees, the total figure baloons to $125,000,000,000,000+
Chips age and fail with age. You can check hot-carrier injection, bias-temperature instability and electromigration as they are the main aging mechanisms. All if these are a linear function of time but exponentieal of temperature. 90-100C these chips are running at are really tough, so they are likely to fail at couple of percent to 10% range in 2-3 years depending on the margins they have in the design.
The solder joints are notorious to fail at a high rate too.
Depends, the SMD caps spread across the board the tiny ones do start to fail and go out of spec over time. they are a right pain to replace and hard to spot one that has gone out of spec to cause the chip to start crashing.
Can you not just move the epxensive part (the gpu itself) to a new carrier board in that situation? Also isn't most of the cost of the GPU itself the design of the board, not actually making one, esp if you can move the heat sinks around?
You can and this is absolutely done for GPUs. It's often more feasible to jump to the next gen GPU at this point while the old part goes into the refurbished market. I believe China buys a lit of parts like these. You will never know how much lifetime is left in them though, as there's no history of the chip.
BGA Reflow rework is not rocket science, How do you think the PCBA gets assembled in the first place? Its much easier if you dont care about the boards at all and with the huge die sizes on these accelerator chips its worth it to do a board swap
There are data centers that use and rent out 10 year old server GPUs.
They can't run larger modern models. They can't run smaller models as fast as newer servers. So their remaining market is applications where customers are okay with older, smaller models and slower performance.
They have to price the service lower than competitors due to the lower performance. The older GPUs are less efficient so it costs them more to keep them running. They're paid off, but they're taking up valuable power, space, and cooling in a data center.
Eventually there is a tipping point where it's better to replace that space and power budget with something new that has more demand.
The parts are sold off on the open market. There's an equilibrium demand for the parts from other data centers keeping older servers running and from hobby people who are okay with a jet engine sounding toaster of a GPU running in their home.
except for you know the enterprise customers who won't change their code and will pay to run old inefficent hardware just to keep from dealing with upgrades?
I'd agree. but also that's too scary. and the bottleneck is the massive manual change control process since there's no automation around any of this. :)
Why take risk when you can spend money and take no risk
As long as the demand for GPUs keeps increasing, there are more data centers being built to house them.
When you have waitlists for many many months for Blackwell GPUs, keeping the old ones around as long as customers are willing to pay for them is great.
If I as a customer have a use case for a machine learning model I developed awhile ago, so an insect identification model, I had an ML researcher/eng develop it back in 2019, and it runs fine on a 2018-era T4 GPU (NVidia 2080 era), why mess with it?
What do you think are running on the T4 GPUs in AWS? A lot of the use cases I know of for them are mid-level computer vision models that don't need to be frontier level.
I can no longer edit this, but want to expand on my comment.
I've seen those vision researchers want to train on H100s at the time and being told know, wait for the T4s.
I've seen T4s running BERT models for document classification.
When there are enough Blackwells in data centers that H100s are useless for inference by your standards (I don't know if we've arrived there or not yet), there will be people who, say, want to run the Taco Bell ordering chatbot on them. There will be people who have applications that are just fine with Qwen 2.5 who will be happy renting them.
There seems to be this crazy consensus that hyperscalers are going to go into their datacenters and throw away their old GPUs. The reality is they have a ton of paying customers for them.
And there may be insect identification apps from 2019 that say "you know what? H100s have gotten cheap enough I can use a VLLM so the user can describe where they saw the insect too", or the McDonald's website support chatbot developers say "Hey, the bigger cheapers have gotten cheap enough we can upgrade our models to Qwen 2.5".
The frontier level GPUs in e.g. AWS have a huge premium. When the newer generations come out, they will be able to cut prices to a bit of a premium over the operational costs and still make a profit, and there are a ton of down-market customers who will be interested, who aren't willing to try to outbid Anthropic for Blackwells.
In addition to the physical depreciations other comments mentioned I'd also mention that old chips will settle into a low price and then actually go up on a per unit basis if you're trying to buy a significant amount of them. With a limitation on fabrication facilities continuing to pump out older cards is an opportunity cost to the manufacturers that would prefer to be producing newer cards. If you were in a place where you suddenly wanted to buy 10,000 3080s, as an example, I'm not certain if the market could actually fulfill that demand and no one with the ability to increase the available supply to meet that demand actually wants to do so.
Chips do wear out and need to be replaced (entropy do be like that and durability is not a primary concern for chip design) so you'll need to refresh your stock and, even if you don't need cutting edge models, the price of all chips at scale will go up over time. It may feel unintuitive since, when the PS3 was released PS1s were extremely cheap - but if you're struggling to understand this effect from your experiences in the consumer market you're actually looking at the price factor that starts making antiques increase in value since at a certain point they become scarce goods. The market price for an NES is higher today than it was in 2003 because the price had already bottomed out from demand from the general consumer market but the demand remaining (speedrunners and the like) is now fixed or growing while the supply is inevitably shrinking.
They do degrade physically, but the bigger thing is they stop being competitive quickly. Each year or so we see doubling of GPU speeds for the same amount of power.
If you build a 100MW data center with GPU compute and three years laster a new data center opens with the same cost for GPUs and same electricity cost you do, but can do twice as much compute, you quickly lose business unless the market is just so constrained customers can't afford to be picky. But the moment there's slack in the market you'll see major migrations off of providers that have the same cost but half, or quarter of the same performance.
So when you see someone talking about GPUs fully deprecating in value in 1-3 years this is what they're talking about. Right now it's not a big deal because there's no slack in the market. But once there is, the bottom will drop out.
Gradually, and especially when hot. Modern chips are pretty close to the physical limits of how small they can be made, and that means atomic/chemical effects like electromigration are accounted for and determine the lifetime. Every extra 10 degrees Celsius of temperature doubles the speed of chemical reactions.
When they stray too close to the line ... you get Intel's 13/14th gen chips that wear out after 1-2 years instead of 10-20 years. Intel calls it "Vmin drift" because that doesn't sound scary, but the actual point is that various wear-out mechanisms push the chip outside of its design envelope - increasing the voltage or lowering the clock speed may get it to run for a while longer, but you're living on borrowed time as the various circuits just stop working right and you get unpredictable instruction mis-execution: https://fgiesen.wordpress.com/2025/05/21/oodle-2-9-14-and-in...
sounds like planned depreciation on Intel's part, they definitely do not design server grade chips for longevity since that would harm their own revenues
It was not planned depreciation, as many chips were failing even before 2 years and this impacted not only PC Builders and Gamers, but also some server infra providers too.
This was simply poor design, it took Intel ages to really figure out what went wrong and "resolve" it.
I used to work in datacenters, during spinning disk era we had technicians from vendors basically every couple of days to replace some broken part. When the massive switch to ssd happened instead of having them every couple of days it was 3 or 4 times per month.
Despite no moving parts things broke anyway and, even if it doesn't break, the vendor can make you change the technology just by playing with maintenance cost of the older one, limiting or removing spare parts from the market.
My understanding is that a lot of AI data centers are still heavily relying on spinning HDDs, which is why seagate, western digital are selling more HDDs than ever before.
Spinning drives are still the "best" for data density and if the IO is sequential (which wouldn't surprise me with AI training workloads), the performance delta may not be that bad vs SSDs. As always, it depends on use case.
I know that a lot of cloud storage has tiered models, where the "expensive, but faster" tiers are SSDs, but then the slower cheaper tiers are HDDs, and the "cold storage" can be HDDs that are turned off all the way to tiers like AWS's S3 "deep archive glacier" tier being tape drives.
Today's data center GPUs are essentially overclocked, and so at limit of how much the chip materials can physically handle, and therefore degrade over time. For example, GH200s operate at 1W/superchip but the actual safe power is somewhere around 650W which will allow them to function for a decade or more. But that leads to around 15% slowdown and that is unacceptable in today's competition. So current GPUs are destined to be depreciating assets.
In future, we might have fixed cost GPUs but not today.
I would presume the reason they are overclocked is because they are trying to make up for the shortage. In time, the shortage of computing components will be remedied, and tokens produced at lower power pulls will be cheaper.
I assumed the issue was similar to crypto mining, where given finite amounts of space and power it makes sense to always be running the latest and most powerful GPUs instead of keeping older hardware running. There's definitely a secondary market for these GPUs as well.
Nothing is stopping them, it's just not worth it: Have a look at e.g. vast.ai's pricing (https://vast.ai/pricing).
The V100 (2017 -> 9 years old) can be rented from $0.02 to $0.37/h (right now I can find a V100 with a Xeon Gold 6140 and 48GB RAM for $0.165/h). Let's assume the guy you rent it to pins it at its 250W TDP and let's ignore the running costs of CPU/RAM/etc...
Then you draw 1/4 kwh for that compute hour. The industrial electricity prices in the US vary between 7.5 and 25 ct per kwh (depending on state, time of day, etc...), so at 100% efficiency, assuming nothing ever breaks, and the CPU consumes 0W you earn about 14ct/h.
And remember: V100s hours are sometimes sold at 1/10th the price.
If I pick average conditions you need to start thinking of whether it is worth it to rent them out: Usually it isn't unless you have them anyways and just sell idle capacity.
It's barely worth it to run them in a pure "is it profitable" sense, if we also account for the opportunity cost of taking up a slot in your datacenter it seizes to be worth it really quickly.
> There are no moving parts, I dont think memory chips or GPU chips deteriorate naturally
I believe they do, but I too would love to know more details because there are several ways this can happen. Electromigration, package failures, VRAM failures, dielectric breakdown... Hopefully there will be studies soon similar to that old Google paper on HDD failures!
Chips do deteriorate and fail naturally at datacenter scale or in timescales of decades, though not exactly like on financial reports. Leak current increases or electro-migrations occur at junctions or whatever those words mean.
And yeah, it does feel like GPUs will start losing values slower going forward with Moore's Law being dead for a while. It used to be that 3-5 years old GPUs were more useful as space heaters than GPUs, but that's much less of the case today.
Yes, even if the hardware is untouched. As technology advances, the power cost per compute cycle goes down. A gpu using old tech costs progressively more to operate compared to the newer models. So its value goes down over time = depreciation.
As for duty cycles, the chips are perfectly happy at 100% operation. Cooling and power componants fail, not the chips. But it costs manpower to repair such things and manpower is inconveniant these days. A gpu with any sort of fault just gets dumped.
When everything is said and done it'll be datacenters in American competing with ones in China that have several times lower electricity prices. Token prices will drop to a level that will be unprofitable for American data centers and they will need to close.
the hardware itself is still useful, but random failures happen every so often, so if you're trying to run a fixed sized fleet then your fleet shrinks when you can't get spares any more
When it was profitable to mine crypto with GPUs people used to sell these miner GPUs on the used market after about two years.
These were about half of the cost of an used GPU just used for gaming. By that pricr, I'd say a GPU kept busy has twice as high a chance of failure after two years of use.
thanks to OpenAI/Anthropic's eye watering valuation and token pricing, the software engineers get to live another day without layoff, because carbon based lifeforms are cheaper than silicon based lifeform for now...
this is not related to AWS, but merely to amazon's retail business and their sellers know and sign up for the deal when they sell via amazon.
every single retail company does this, they allow suppliers to sell the product using retails's infrastructure, and then retailer turns around and create private label products using sales data (Costco's Kirkland Signature, Walmart's Great Value, are just some examples)
Yes, but Kirkland's signature comes from the same factory. If I'm the factory owner and Costco vis going to guarantee me sales albeit at a slightly lower margin, so long as I slap a different sticker on it, that's different than from Amazon finding out which of my products sells best and then gets someone else to rip it off so I don't get paid anything.
First of all, we don't know which factory kirkland's products are coming from. Even if they are coming from the same factory, who guarantees the same ingredients and quality control was used???
everything from amazon is coming from China, I dont understand why does a random person who resells stuff from Chinese factories via Amazon FBA feels entitled for exclusivity arrangement with Amazon?
Was such exclusivity encoded in some form of legally enforceable agreement ?
That’s not the case at all. Kirkland just ditched Huggies making their diapers. They just introduced a breaded chicken tender nug to compete with one on the shelf.
They absolutely go out and find who can make the product and the quality and price they want. It’s not always an identical product to the brand name on the same shelf. Sometimes it displaces the brand name.
This naturally protects the artificial oligopoly of visa/mc/discover systems.
The moment you allow Merchants to charge cc fees (even 2-3%) and allow customer to choose low processing option (ACH/debit card/cash), the whole scheme falls apart and Visa/MC will slowly go bankrupt
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