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I will assume you tried chiropractor, acupuncture, and perhaps even yoga?


And pixie dust and sugar pills and wishes.


Do not dismiss other techniques so easily. The human body is a very complex mechanism and we still don't know exactly how it works. Modern medicine has been based only on the knowledge that we have: which is thus quite limited.

I'm not saying that they will work. But acupuncture and yoga are not the same as pixie dust, dung pills or what have you.

To give an example of what I mean: the waters of the Ganges were said to have "magical powers that cured disease"[0]. It was later found that the waters contained bacteriophages that killed bacteria. Could anyone have guessed this?

[0]:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225782/


>But acupuncture and yoga are not the same as pixie dust, dung pills or what have you.

Okay, so why don't they show any efficacy above pixie dust in double-blinded studies?


Don't forget that pixie dust (or a saline injection) can actually be fairly effective. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect#Pain


Do you have a cite for this? And efficacy in what? They are not medicines, they are lifestyles (just like lifting or diet as another commenter mentioned)


Unfortunately, double blind studies of acupuncture are impossible (the person doing it must know if they're putting needles in), and single blind studies are almost impossible (the patient can feel the needles, and tell how far in they are). The only thing than can be tested is the traditional Chinese medicine chi flow idea, and even assuming there's no chi flow along meridians, that doesn't mean the special locations it tries to explain aren't valid for some other reason. But it can't be tested.

It's all deeply frustrating. I tried acupuncture a few years ago (at a doctor's recommendation) and did a lot of reading. It didn't work for me, unsurprisingly - about the only thing it's been shown to have any effect for is some types of lower back pain, and my pain was (is) mostly in my hands.


The theory of acupuncture places rules and requirements on how the needles are placed. You can of course stick needles in wherever you want but that is not acupuncture in the same way that cracking my own neck is not chiropracy and cutting myself with a knife is not surgery. Any study that just says random needle sticking might work (in addition to being flawed due to the issues you've laid out) is not really any more compelling than a study that concludes "cracking your neck feels good".

Therefore single-blind studies of acupuncture are trivial; just find people who don't know where the needles are supposed to go. A double-blind study could be possible, if you trained two sets of people to perform the procedure (one incorrectly).


Yes, the locations can be and have been tested. The needle action itself is what can't be properly tested, though there have been plenty of attempts with various types of sham needle, etc. I'm not trying to claim it doesn't or can't work (since I don't know), just that it's frustratingly difficult to research important bits of it.


You can compare to to deeper (in safe) or shallower insertions, and not tell the patient which is official acupuncture. You can apply anesthetic s first. These give clues.


> Unfortunately, double blind studies of acupuncture are impossible

It doesn't seem completely impossible. You could have someone put the same needles in randomly, instead of in whatever location acupuncture claims they should be put in.


That would be single blind (edit: actually, now I see what you mean, double WRT location), but yes, the locations can be tested - and they have been. The needle action itself is what can't be properly tested.


No it has been tested. It's only placebo.


Yeah I actually agree with that in theory because the needles would be mimicking the same side effect, the sensation of needle in skin, to a good effect.


There are double-blind studies on acupuncture, by using "trick-needles" that don't penetrate the skin but look like they do.

This study introduces them and shows that acupuncturists can't well distinguish both types: https://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6882/7/31

This study uses them to check for differences in pain-relief (there are no differences): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2765771/


Yoga, perhaps, but it's on par with other low impact physical activity and stretching. The other two are just pseudoscience.


Have you had acupuncture and/or chiropractor? They at minimum can give relief.


Stooge: "Thanks 'Dr' that feels slightly better."

Chiropractor: "Great! Now let's just get you scheduled for three appointments a week for the rest of your life."


Yes, you have to deal with the underlying problems - if there are any that can be dealt with, to get your alignment back in place, etc..


Chiropractic is often very effective for manipulating bones and muscles into a correct alignment.

While there is a part of chiropractic that is, imo, alchemy, don't disregard the rest.


I've actually been to a chiropractor, as a sort of desperate measure once when I had really horrible back pain, could barely stand straight etc—exactly the sort of thing you'd think chiropractic would be perfectly suited for. I was skeptical about chiropractors, given their reputation, but I figured it couldn't hurt to try (er, probably... :).

The chiropractor I went to was in a fairly wealthy neighborhood, had a nice office, and seemed "respectable." However, once he actually started, it very quickly became clear he hadn't the faintest clue what he was doing, didn't care much, and was just going through some very simplistic motions. He not only failed to have any effect on my problem, but he was singularly ineffective in even trying to track down the issue. It was a very different experience from a normal doctor: almost every real doctor, even when completely confused and out of his depth, at least has clear techniques for probing and trying to figure out what's up or at least figure out the next step to take or who to ask—and they will very freely refer you to someone else if that's called for. This chiropractor: nothing. Zero. Nada.

After 30 minutes of painfully obvious hand waving, he then said "ok, well I guess you'd better schedule another appointment." I then went out into his waiting room, and heard another patient chatting with the secretary, and it became clear this patient was a "regular."

It seemed fairly obvious that the whole scam was to get patients on the appointment treadmill, offering promises, but no relief, continually dangling in front of them the hope that "next time" things would get better...

Maybe not every chiropractor is this way, but my experience perfectly matched their generally poor reputation, so I suspect it's more common than not.

[I didn't schedule another appointment... :]


Hunh. I've been to a variety of chiropractors. In general, they have usually yanked my body into position. Usually they have a mechanism of analysis and then cracking the body based on that. There are hokums out there, that is for sure. I hope that next time your back is tweaked you can find a competent one.


There's also a very significant risk of injury involved with chiropractic procedures, especially when spinal injuries are involved.


No, it's not. Reasearch shows chiropratic is, at best, approximately equal to physical therapy for your back but with a much higher risk of injury. Your spine doesn't get out of alignment as they claim.


My mom, a registered nurse, performed acupuncture on my dad for pain relief for a while when I was younger. It seemed to work fine.


Sugar pills can seem to work as well. Hell, dancing around while shaking a bag full of broken glass, pretty rocks, and bottle caps while chanting the names of you ancestors can seem to work fine.


If the placebo effect is stimulated, then its stimulated. Why knock the stimulant?


> dancing around while shaking a bag full of broken glass

Depends what happens next.


do you have any case studies / articles to back this up? i had fairly bad scoliosis when i was younger which was corrected by chiropractic, and i got back every few months for a bit of preventative maintenance. i'd honestly like to see if it's justified or if i'm just waisting my 20 dollars...


You could skip a month and see what happens.


After a snowboarding accident I was left with a knee that I couldn't run on. I saw physios for 2 years and saw no improvement. 2 months of osteopathy(twice a week) and yoga(3 classes + 20 minutes at home on the other days per week) and I was good to go, running, snowboarding, the works. I find I still need to do some yoga every now and again(maybe once or twice a month) but apart from that it's forgotten.




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