... it requires engaging with other companies on less than good faith that you're really motivated to jump to another job.
This is what bothers me most about this sort of advice. As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made. Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical. I really don't think you should look for a competing offer unless you're willing to accept that offer if you don't get what you want from your current employer.
As someone in this exact position, my solution was to ask for a raise, and when they said no, I considered trying to make a quick move. But after realizing that I really don't want to job hunt right this moment, I put my head down and went back to work.
Yeah, I think that's just the value judgment everyone has to make. Either you get another offer and are willing to walk if it's not met, or you're willing to wait it out and see if you can get a better raise later. It's a personal decision based on your circumstances.
Oh and parent comment presented his opinion as a TL:DR of the OP, when in fact it's just his opinion. The OP is nuanced and quite worth the read.
I think the parent was actually tl;dr'ing his own post up front.
"As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made."
Then make sure your staff aren't forced to get a competing offer just to get market rates.
"Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical"
The vast majority of people applying for roles will switch if the offer is right. Sure if you offer 10% more I'd much rather just get my current employer to match... but if you offer 30+% then we have a deal. I don't want to stay with an employer who will underpay me by so much.
Then make sure your staff aren't forced to get a competing offer just to get market rates.
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said. I'm talking about the cost in time and effort to hire someone, not to retain them. (Regardless, I have no say or control over salaries, so I can't do much about this.)
The vast majority of people applying for roles will switch if the offer is right. Sure if you offer 10% more I'd much rather just get my current employer to match... but if you offer 30+% then we have a deal. I don't want to stay with an employer who will underpay me by so much.
Eh, maybe. I'm not sure I agree. Even if I was feeling underpaid at my current company, it'd have to be a ridiculously sweet deal to get me to move (I mean, so sweet that no one would ever offer me something like that). I have enough forms of attachment other than salary that even say a 50% raise would be unlikely to get me to budge. I think there are quite a few people who feel similarly.
And that's what I object to: someone shopping around with zero intention of accepting another job, but only doing so to use as leverage with their current employer. Yeah, "it's just business", but the people at these other companies whose time you're wasting are real people who don't deserve to be jerked around.
Yeah, I think we're on the same page here. It does create a weird conundrum that makes a lot of people want to solve with asinine and borderline unethical logic. You know you should be making more than you are, but your employer just won't see that. The easy assumption to make is that your employer is being sociopathic and that you should be more sociopathic in return. "It's just business!"
But the stakes are really high here. Your employer has a lot more to lose than you do if you jump ship over a relatively small amount of money. You took the job, so obviously it was right for you at some point. Did that really change just because they turned your raise request down? Do you really want to hang them out to dry over what's essentially a misunderstanding? Don't sacrifice your professionalism to feed your ego.
My solution is to just keep getting better and better until I can make my own opportunities. Then to start on one as my current projects wind down, giving plenty of notice as to my intentions. Everybody wins.
> I think the parent was actually tl;dr'ing his own post up front.
I'm going to show an opposing viewpoint here: I believe this is the thought pattern that screws developers over.
It's not about being sociopathic. You said it yourself: it's just business. Really, that's what it is. You are exchanging skills for money, if one party isn't happy with the agreement, they can terminate it. Don't confuse the issue with wording like "hang them out to dry" or "professionalism." Professionalism has nothing to do with martyring yourself. If you're unhappy with anything enough to leave, then leave.
I agree with what you're saying, but that isn't what we're talking about here. We're talking about the idea of it being unethical to shop yourself around with no intention of accepting a competing company's offer. I see this as ethically neutral with respect to your current employer, but as kinda unethical with respect to the other companies whose time, effort, and resources you are wasting by pushing yourself through a hiring pipeline with no intention of following through.
If you can get a better deal from your current employer via other means, you should certainly do so. If not... well, I'm personally uncomfortable interviewing at other companies with no intention of accepting an offer. Opinions differ, of course.
The article, and this comment thread, is definitely heavy on the money factor, but there's also the everything-other-than-money compensation aspect mentioned in the article as well.
I find it really hard to try and figure out what other benefits, aside from a salary hike, you might get from a new job. Realistically, I think you need to make your way right up until the point where they do or don't offer you something. Everything about the interview process is as much of the company seeing if they like you as it is you seeing if you like the company.
Sure, if you have no intention of changing your employment situation, well, yeah, you're wasting a bit of someone else's time... but there's also the flipside that you might not even notice that there's something more interesting, or something intrinsically more valuable, about a new job until you actually get to the point where you're being offered it.
That's a really good point that I haven't considered. I guess the key point is there that our hypothetical raise-seeker isn't really too interested in a change, but at least has an open mind and would consider making a jump if something unexpectedly great popped up during the process.
I sorta feel the same way about it that you do, I really wouldn't take interviews that far unless I was at least somewhat inclined in taking the offer.
However, employers don't particularly care about their candidates either. Generally you're expected to skip a day of getting paid, at crappy notice, to come talk to some people who've laregly already made their minds up about you.
You might be the special case that doesn't treat candidates like shit, but after a while of getting stiffed, most people learn to play the game. I can't really blame people for trying to get what they're worth.
I suspect though, if they're willing to take the chance going back to their employers with a competing offer, they're at least willing to take that offer should their current employer react poorly or fail to match it.
Ouch. I really hope I'm not a special case. I haven't worked anywhere that treated candidates like shit, and I haven't interviewed anywhere that did, either. Not saying places like that don't exist, but I really hope that's not the common case.
I really don't think you should look for a competing offer unless you're
willing to accept that offer if you don't get what you want from your
current employer.
That mostly sounds like whining after you were handed a warm (or better!) prospect and screwed up the sale.
Also, unless you're one of the very very few companies that are honest in their job descriptions, offer a good work environment, and release the salary plus comp on offer at the beginning of the negotiation rather than the end, you're wasting a candidate's time just as much as he or she is wasting yours, if you choose to view it that way.
You need to get straight who you're replying to. I'm not the guy who said he's having problems hiring. I'm somebody else. I've never hired anybody. I've only looked for jobs.
I'm asking you an honest question here. Would you, personally, engage another company about a job that you don't have the intention of taking, in order to gain leverage over your current company?
I can't see myself as being willing to do such a thing, but I'm interested in the thought processes of someone who would. Maybe I'm operating under false pretenses. You don't know unless you ask.
And I'm asking you an honest question: if a prospect walks in your door, do you either (1) sell them, or (2) demand they prove they are in the market and aren't wasting your time. Maybe that person has a 5% chance of closing, or maybe they have a 90% chance. Nonetheless, when you go with the "prove you aren't wasting my time" plan, the probabilities plummet.
This is what bothers me most about this sort of advice. As someone who is often trying to hire people, it's a lot of effort to get a candidate through the pipeline to the point where an offer is made. Intentionally causing people at another company to waste that kind of effort would make me feel like I was doing something unethical. I really don't think you should look for a competing offer unless you're willing to accept that offer if you don't get what you want from your current employer.
As someone in this exact position, my solution was to ask for a raise, and when they said no, I considered trying to make a quick move. But after realizing that I really don't want to job hunt right this moment, I put my head down and went back to work.
Yeah, I think that's just the value judgment everyone has to make. Either you get another offer and are willing to walk if it's not met, or you're willing to wait it out and see if you can get a better raise later. It's a personal decision based on your circumstances.
Oh and parent comment presented his opinion as a TL:DR of the OP, when in fact it's just his opinion. The OP is nuanced and quite worth the read.
I think the parent was actually tl;dr'ing his own post up front.